After seeing the film 300 mere hours ago (read my review here), I find it difficult to understand how someone would be against it. But I have also come to recognize that very little that happens in this world should come as a surprise.
UK site Filmstalker, a site that usually has a wealth of interesting posts beyond your average movie news, posted an article about a petition filed by a Dr. Hamed Vahdati Nasab. In the petition, Dr. Nasab addresses Warner Brothers and Director Zach Snyder, making claims that the film 300 is “according to all historical documents, is fraudulent and distorted, and its broadcast guarantees the violation of undeniable international legal rights.”
Upon further investigation of the petition, I found that Dr. Nasab went on to talk about the “proven scholarly fact that the Persian Empire in 480 B.C was the most magnificent and civilized empire.” This is all, of course, in reference to the film’s depiction of the Persian people (and King) as a ruthless horde of savages who sought to enslave the nations of Greece.
But then again, isn’t that how it was told in Greek history books? I am sure the Persian side is a bit more rosy. It is the same way that if Islamic extremists describe the war in Iraq 10 years down the road, I am sure they will tell it a bit differently than a farmer from Arkansas would. That is the nature of conflict and societal differences — there are multiple sides. We see similarities in our own country, especially between the two political parties. But are Republicans with vested interests in big oil petitioning Paramount over An Inconvenient Truth and how global warming may or may not actually exist. No. It is a movie, based on the beliefs (or imagination) of at least 1 person.
The same can be said for 300, a film based on the vivid imagination and interpretation of Frank Miller (who, coincidentally is not mentioned in the petition despite the fact that the concept is completely his). Miller’s graphic novel was adapted into a film and distributed for the purposes of entertaining Americans and making copious box office grosses. It was not made to piss off 1803 (at time of publication) Persians who sign an online petition.
The real question — who cares? It is just a movie.
With that, I open up the floor to our faithful readers. Do you care about this? Please leave some love below…
Tagged: News
March 7th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
“It’s just a movie” , what a nonsense sentence, gee excuse Mr. Anglo Saxon, I forgot you’re lord !
Buddy ! it’s not 1 movie, it’s a part of anti-Iranian propaganda ! what about Alexander movie? 1+1=2 ! so it’s not A movie ! it’s a wave, if you like make fictional movies, then use fictional names ! don’t play with history , maybe you all fear from facts!
p.s. : I suspect you used “Islamist” to guide your readers mind to somewhere hmm … but be aware that before 600 A.D. Iranians were ALL Zoroastrian ! not Muslim !
March 7th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
Umm lets see here, Brave Heart, Kingdom of Heaven, Titanic, Gladiator, The Patriot, these are just a few. These are all movies based on fact but obviously fiction. you cant be against 300 because its not accurate. Who cares that they twist the facts around to make the story more interesting. That is the purpose of a movie to entertain the audience, if you want facts watch the history channel and let the rest of the population enjoy the movie.
March 7th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Maahaan — I’m sticking with my phrase. It is just a movie. I didn’t go into it for a history lesson, I went to be entertained. And despite your conspiracy theory, I don’t think this is Anti-Iranian propaganda. I am not so sure that most of America would be keen enough to tie the Persians in with any Middle Eastern Culture. I would urge you to show respect to the filmmaker — not everyone is trying to make a political statement — what you are doing is spinning something into something it is not, which is just what politicians do.
And as for your remark about the word “Islamist”, I used it as part of an analogy about how different sides of conflict see things differently. I could also form the same analogy with Catholics and Protestants in Ireland, Germans and Brits in WWII or even the Northerners and Southerners during the American Civil War. No matter what type of conflict you have, there are going to be different perspectives — or else there would be no conflict.
Phew… Did I miss anything?
Oh, and Kevin — right on!
March 7th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
[…] The Anti-300 Debate? […]
March 7th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
Oh and Maahaan — No one actually saw Alexander, so it is irrelevant to bring that up.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
Neil and Kevin,
I understand that movie making is for the most part an entertaining business. But it is hard to overlook the fact that a movie either directly or indirectly puts forth a message across for the audience. Usually, the more entertaining the movie, the longer the message lasts and the deeper it interweaves with peoples’ knowledge. (I personally learned a lot about holocaust in the Schindler’s List movie). Unfortunately in a corporate world, where mutual understanding and truth seeking are substituted by money and power seeking, propaganda is inevitable. Although I don’t strictly agree that the movie “300” is a part of the ongoing propaganda against Persians, but I do believe that the movie makers have been very sloppy and unfair in twisting the history to make it more ‘entertaining’. I bet if Warner Brothers invest on making a movie about the glories –or any other ‘fact’- of the Persian Empire, it wouldn’t harvest less grosses at the box office. The majority of people mostly buy tickets to see some action and special effects (which 300 has plenty of, just like Alexander “the great”, Terminator, Matrix and ….), so in my point of view, ‘300’ is a lie wrapped with a layer of chocolate and most people don’t even realize what they’ve been injected with; they uptake both the lie and the chocolate at the same time. This is the concept that annoys me.
The petition which has now reached 6400 is an effort to put across the message that although the corporate world is solely –either consciously or unconsciously- works toward depicting Persians as ‘savages’, intellectual communities around the world are aware of this process and do their best to eliminate it or at least balance it out! The movie industry is really amazing with all its potentials. I do respect all the people in this business –including the ones involves in ‘300’- and I hope they can manage to entertain people with less sensitive issues.
“I am not so sure that most of America would be keen enough to tie the Persians in with any Middle Eastern Culture.” … Where do you live? Are most Americans really ignorant to this extent?! I don’t think so.
In case you have little information about Persians, I’ll give you some hints. Apparently, Persians were extremely civilized people at that era. You probably know that the first human right declaration is written by Cyrus almost 2500 years ago and was engraved in stone which is now kept at UN entrance hallway. One item states that all pregnant women have to be paid during their pregnancy and need not to work and will benefit from some form of insurance. Yet another item states that all workers on kingdom projects (like Perspolise) have to be paid by from the King treasury. These two might not seem extraordinary in our era, but imagine the vision of those people 2500 years ago recognizing the rights of the labors (a.k.a slaves!) and pregnant women. So, it may be debatable to what extent Persians were civilized at that time, but it’s absolutely head spinning to see that Persians are introduced as ‘savages’ in a movie. The Persian civilization was so sophisticated and deep-rooted in all aspects of culture, religion and language that even after the invasion of Alexander or the vicious invasion of Islamic culture, one can find genuine traditions of that old civilization among the culture now inherited by Iranians (such as Norooz (new year)).
March 8th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
Mehdi — Where to begin? I am one for debate among agreeable parties, so here we go.
I live in Ohio. And yes, I do think that most Americans are truly this ignorant. Ignorance is defined as being “uninformed” or “unaware”. In this since, most Americans are completely unaware that this sort of thing is anything other than escapist entertainment. We see it as a way to go into a movie theater, forget about the political or societal climates in which we live and enjoy an action movie where heroes kill villains (all of whom are stylized and far from realistic).
If we gather a theme from this film it is that great determination and honor, determination to protect what you believe, can help you overcome even the greatest obstacle. But theme aside, the film is an interpretation of a popular American graphic novel. A work of fiction.
My real problem with something like this is how so many people can be so terribly offended by a stylized work of fiction. I was raised Catholic, yet I found no offense in The Da Vinci Code (except that Tom Hanks’ hair was terrible.) As well, this film is not a film that advertises itself as being historically accurate. Schindler’s List was a film made to be accurate, informative and moving. 300 has a giant guy with swords as arms and a nude, contortionist teenage girl who talks to the Gods. What of that can you find in history books? Mythology, maybe. But not in history.
The history of the Persian people is probably as you say it is. I am not an expert, I don’t know much about the Persian culture. But I assure you that one thing is true, I do not think that I know any more about the Persian civilization from watching this film. That is the point.
PS - Once again, no one actually saw Alexander, it starred Colin Farrell. It is not relevant to the discussion.
And one more thing — so if it is so wrong now for Warner Brothers to make this film, then why was there not an uproar when Dark Horse Comics published Frank Miller’s graphic novel back in 1999?
March 9th, 2007 at 11:09 am
[…] The Anti-300 Debate? […]
March 9th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Mehdi, I am concerned, I wonder if you have even seen the movie. I saw 300 last night and I have to say I don’t see where all of the complaining is coming from. The movie was hardly about the Persians. As Neil said it is about a group of men who stood up for their rights as free men, who fought against insurmountable odds. They didn’t have the backing of their government that they were defending. It a moving film, it shows that one person can make a difference. I’m sure if I were to ask any of the hundreds of people who saw the movie last night, if they thought the movie made the Persians out to be savages. I would get maybe one or two who thought that it did. Yes the general public is “misinformed” or “uneducated” but most of the population knows fact from fiction. And this movie screams fiction from ever minute of the film. If you want to attack a film for straying from the facts, attack a film like the Zodiac. It is based off of a real serial killer, and if you do some research you will find that there are a lot of twisted facts in this film, but every person who left the theater from that movie thinks they know how it really happened. Pick your battles, fighting the 300 for making the Persians look like savages is really not the best choice. At least see the movie before you condemn it for being inaccurate.
March 9th, 2007 at 10:22 pm
Hi, Maahaan.
First, I want to tell you that I am a great admirer of Persian civilization. It was the only civilization that was the greatest twice; in both occasions, it was the driver of great conquest for the human kind: Mathematics (with Omar Kayan and others), philosophy and medicine (with Avicena), roads, centralized government, post office, all this we own to Persian, and should never stop expressing our gratitude to this civilization twice as great as any other. It is true that Spartan civilization has nothing to commend itself; I am sure that living in Sparta was the closest thing in Earth to living in Hell. However, everybody should admire the Spartans for their bravery; and the Persians of the time have shown they greatness by recognizing the bravery of their enemies, taking them as military advisers, receiving their generals, when mean people at home sent them to exile, giving them village to govern, and a handsome income. Therefore, I expect that modern Iranians will recognize the bravery of the Spartans, like the great king Xerxes did, when he received Pausanias and Temistokles in his kingdom.
March 9th, 2007 at 11:14 pm
I’m trying to post something here, it doesn’t appear to work right. I appologize if you get duplicate posts.
March 9th, 2007 at 11:17 pm
Folks,
Since I’m not an American, I have no choice (or base for reasoning) other than to accept your comments on ‘unawareness’ of Americans. Although it’s painful to acknowledge the fact that citizens of such a powerful and blessed land (with all its alleges and claims all over the world) are simply “unaware” of the history. There’s no problem with being ‘uninformed’ though, except the fact that such people are the ideal target to be manipulated by mass media or any other purposive corporation to take actions in their name. I agree that my statements may be too strong, but I just wanted to be clear and I’m not claiming to be accurate quantitatively about all Americans. I’m grateful of having acquaintance with some colleges here in Connecticut whom I truly praise for their vast knowledge and curious minds in history, politics and social awareness. Anyway, this is getting off topic. We can pursue it maybe later.
Rest to follow…
March 9th, 2007 at 11:21 pm
I did some research on Frank Miller; according to himself he got inspiration for his novel from watching a movie “The 300 Spartans” when he was a boy back in 1962. As the name suggests, this movie also revolves around the heroism of the Spartans in Thermopylae war. If you check out the outline of that movie, it again shows Persians as savages (which is an essential twist to make the story more ‘entertaining’). Back in those times, the sophisticated computer based special effects were not available, so I guess they had to use the most disgusting make ups and costumes for Persians. I don’t even bother discussing the historic accuracy of these two movies, because they neither claim to be accurate nor any reasonable person would believe that 300 warriors could kill 500,000 Parisian soldiers (just imaging the pile of corpse of such casualties in 3 days). If you haven’t had a chance to read about Thermopylae, there’s a concise article in Wikipedia http://imdb.com/title/tt0055719/board/nest/55692748.
Anyway, that movie inspired Frank Miller in 1962; the recent movie is going to inspire another kid, and I’m not sure what that kid is going to do with this inspiration! (by the way, there’s a video game on PSP from WarnerBros following exactly the same theme)
March 9th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
I did some research on Frank Miller; according to himself he got inspiration for his novel from watching a movie “The 300 Spartans” when he was a boy back in 1962. As the name suggests, this movie also revolves around the heroism of the Spartans in Thermopylae war. If you check out the outline of that movie, it again shows Persians as savages (which is an essential twist to make the story more ‘entertaining’). Back in those times, the sophisticated computer based special effects were not available, so I guess they had to use the most disgusting make ups and costumes for Persians. I don’t even bother discussing the historic accuracy of these two movies, because they neither claim to be accurate nor any reasonable person would believe that 300 warriors could kill 500,000 Parisian soldiers (just imaging the pile of corpse of such casualties in 3 days). If you haven’t had a chance to read about Thermopylae, there’s a concise article in Wikipedia. Anyway, that movie inspired Frank Miller in 1962; the recent movie is going to inspire another kid, and I’m not sure what that kid is going to do with this inspiration! (by the way, there’s a video game on PSP from WarnerBros following exactly the same theme).
My point is that when a pattern is repeated over and over in various (entertaining) modalities, it will leave its footprints deep inside people. This is not the first instance. Another video game, Prince of Persia in 2003 also raised some attentions about being purposive (There are tons of debates available on web). In semiconductor electronics, they call it ‘Avalanche Breakdown’ and in Laser physics they know it as positive feedback leading to instability. Both of these refer to situations in which an action brings another one, but this time stronger. I understand that those corporations who invest money expect revenues and when they can achieve it by creating such a monster from Persians, why should they hesitate to do so!? After all, it’s just unfair, but who cares.
Rest to follow…
March 9th, 2007 at 11:23 pm
“Indifference” my friend! When people become ‘indifferent’ about the truth and are only immersed in following their personal objectives (either being entertained in the movie theater or earning more revenues at box office), they give rise to this positive feedback unintentionally. And the simple consequence of that is forgetting a great ancient civilization. Persian civilization is not something that me or anybody else can claim over, it belongs to the humanity and everyone should try to understand, learn and protect its heritage. A long and informative debate about the surrounding issues of the Battle of Thermopylae is in Internet Movie Data Base (under the movie “the 300 Spartans”). There, people have repeatedly commented that the world was going to be a dangerous place if Persians could win that war (which they actually won! Persians were defeated in two later battles, namely Salamis (on sea) and Plataea (on ground) which put an end to Greco-Persian wars). I’m almost sure the fellows with such comments have no (or very little) idea on the Persians’ way of life and their contribution to glory of mankind. After all, history has always been written by the victor. I’m not a historian, but I’ve seen some of the remainings of Persian Empire, and believe me, they not only could not be savages, but they had to be very sophisticated people.
“But I assure you that one thing is true, I do not think that I know any more about the Persian civilization from watching this film. That is the point.” … This is sad Neil.
“why was there not an uproar when Dark Horse Comics published Frank Miller’s graphic novel back in 1999?” … how do you know? There might have been individuals irritated by that novel.
But my point is that this concept of demolishing a civilization to glorify 300 warriors just to entertain people and earn millions of dollars is not (at least) morally right. It would have been justifiable if Warner Brothers could persuade (at least) themselves that they have used their resources to educate people about truth (just as somebody did in Schindler’s list) in addition to entertaining them. In fact there are so few entities that can claim they have paid their owe to the Persian civilization by proper use of their resources. How many times you have heard the word “Alexander” or “Achilles”, and how many times have you heard the words “Darius” or “Cyrus the great”? The first two leaders/warriors were undoubtedly amazing (and we all know that), but the two last kings contributed more to humanity than you or me can even imagine. Persians also have heroes and great warriors (although they were not much into war comparing to Spartans who were raised as warriors). Do you agree with me that it would be harder to be entertained by a movie showing the glory of Persian Empire after having their picture as monsters with sword arms!? But it’s much easier to be entertained by another movie with the same theme as Alexander the great. I believe that how media is steering the conception of people to nail down the idea that it’s the shoulders of Romans and Greeks that the world today is built upon. And unfortunately, they have been successful.
In short, I think, nowadays, even the most superficial issues (like movie entertainment) have very profound and sophisticated stories behind them which are led predominantly by money and power rather than molarities and truth. It makes everything harder for people who seek truth and more ‘entertaining’ for those who are indifferent.
I enjoy this debate. Our discussion may not change anything at all, but it forced me research a little bit and to organize my thoughts about the issue.
March 10th, 2007 at 2:20 am
you’re an idiot. if you cant see the subtle racism in this film then you must be a doosh bag.
March 10th, 2007 at 4:11 am
I’m a persian…and i LOVED THE MOVIE!!!! While enjoying the amazing action scenes i was laughing my ass off on how a million other persians would be pissed off. I mean,yea …they showed us persians as something completely other than who we really are…but,they did such an awesome job,it doesn’t really matter anymore!
To all the persians who are pissed off, make the same movie but with a persian twist if you really care…and if you don’t,just shove it and enjoy the show.Get a reality check,History is written by the victors ppl…and in this age Hollywood rules!
March 10th, 2007 at 6:52 am
First of all I must confess that I haven’t seen the movie and my conclusions are solely depending upon the comments and the general atmosphere about the movie in Iran.
I don’t intend to call American naive not at all but the problem with your folk is your extremely advanced level of civilization which makes your people quite independent of further interaction with the rest of the world. Those of you who know Uncle Jessy in Duke’s of Hazzard surely know what I mean by his expression “He has been in two places in this world Hazzard county and Korea and he sees no reason wrong”. So I really see no reason why you should know the difference between Persian,Iranians,Arabs,Muslims,Germans….
you rely on your own or as you say the only thing that matters for you is your entertainment.
On the other side we the people of more dependent countries have to make a wide eye about every thing that is going on on every part of the world. not that we want to interfere but simply because we have to foresee the events to take good measures about or sometimes agianst them.
I hate to say it, hopefuly it’s simply diplomatic clashes but the atmosphere between Iran and US is not friendly at all the moment you are reading this mail as far as I know a mighty part of American fleet is harboured in Persian Gulf waiting for a thumb up(I’m no politician trust me) But I can say that may be the only thing stopping American further action is the reluctant view of Americans towards another war.
But the possibility of war still exists and your politicians must mobilize every single factor in their hand to be ready if the time comes.
I don’t expect you to know anything about the glories of the Persian empire commented here but tell me sincerely hasn’t your attitude towards Persians (Iranians) changed towards a more negative view as if we are beasts that should be blasted off, after watching the movie?
The same idea I think relies before Alexander the Great movie and every other anti Persian Iranian propaganda that you simply need to switch on your TV to receive a plenty of.
My fellow Americans the only thing I and the rest of the world expect from you as the pioneers of the world is a bit more sophisticated view a bit more than your sole entertainment.
I once read a book about a partisan hunter (Ex SS) who had an extreme calmness in eliminating his enemies Talking about his own personality however he confessed that whenever he faced the enemy he had to create a monsterous creature and evil out of them so that he might be able to push the Boyonette in.
Now after watching the savage scenes of Persian monsters we have become a step more evil in your eyes and you are more ready to push the bayonette in when the time comes.
And it’s true that the history is written by the victors.
March 10th, 2007 at 11:22 am
Ali and Mehdi — There is one thing I would like you to understand. One, I do not think that I have gained any knowledge about the Persian Empire from this film. And while it may be sad, yes, it is true. I have not gained any knowledge about Persians because I am wise enough to understand that this is a stylized interpretation. In fact, just as you have pointed out in regards to Frank Miller, it is an interpretation of an interpretation. I for one have the ability to separate these comic villains from real Persians.
How can I separate the two? Because I know real people from the middle east (Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, etc.) I stay away from making judgments of people as a whole, but if I were to do so I assure you those judgments would be made based on my interactions with real people, not characters in a fictional film. It would be like saying that I hate Italian people because they are all gangsters like in The Godfather or Goodfellas. That just doesn’t jive in the mind of a rational human being.
Another thing you have to understand is that not all Americans are influenced by mass media. There are some, yes, which is what leads to people supporting unjust causes (i.e. the War in Iraq), but that does not go for all of us. Too often the best of Americans, the open-minded, cultured and peace loving Americans are overshadowed by the ignorant or extreme minority. This can be said for many cultures, but it is magnified for Americans.
As far as this movie goes, I would say that Warner Brothers did the right thing to make it so stylized and unrealistic. In that sense, it cannot be construed as being an accurate depiction. It works more as mythology. This is where I think that this sort of petition is unfair. At no point did WB, or the director, or anyone else involved come out and say “This is how it went. This is an accurate piece of history.” That is why I think it is unfair to criticize the filmmakers. If anything, they have shown restraint by not attempting to sell this as being accurate.
Jeremy — Would you care to expand upon your claim of my idiocy? Or are your last comments just going to be a misspelling of douche bag?
To all — Here is what I would recommend. I would urge you to see the movie, then make judgment. I for one would not be participating so feverishly in the debate had I not seen the movie and been able to witness how not Anti-Persian it truly is. I would think that any reasonable person would do the same.
March 10th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
[…] does $27 mil on FridayA heated debate has been raging over the last few days over at my own blog, The Columbus Movie Guy, as to the historical accuracy of 300 and its portrayal of Persians as savages. Of course, as these […]
March 10th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
Neil- I quite agree with the bulk of your intention.
But let’s view the case from another point of view. I agree with you and ensure you that never has Persia owned such Orges as are shown as the Xerxes immortals. I personally would have really enjoyed watching the movie if instead of battle of thermopylae it was called The lord of the rings episode 4.
You ask us not to criticize the WB all right but tell me sincerely would you have enjoyed watching the movie made by Iranians showing Americans as orges and monsters that should be clashed.
Thermopylae did exist Xerxes Leonidas Salamis the conquest of Athens the conquest of Alexander of Persia they are all reality they all happened with people still bearing the nationality and heritage of those who made the history.
And dear Neil no matter how much you try to remain rational towards the negative effects media,your unconcious self would not remian indifferent if for example you hear about a nation hostility towards you 3 times a day 7 days a week.The greatest master of propaganda in history had a phrase “You can force men to believe that a circle is a rectangle by the magic of your words”
March 10th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
One more thing that I must add is that in the view of politicians the major rational people who remain indifferent to these propagnandas are of little importance. Devatating steps are made in every occasion by those minority of people who you mentioned are hypnotised by the mass media.
I doubt if president Bush received his support for the invasion of Iraq from top sophisticated educated peace loving caste of Americans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
March 10th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
OH MY GOD !!!!!!!!!!!! HOW IN THE HELL DID THIS MOVIE GO FROM ENTERTAINMENT TO PRESIDENT BUSH ??????? I HAVE WAITED FOR THIS MOVIE FOR 6 MONTH TO COME OUT ! FOR ONE REASON AND ONE REASON ONLY ……… AND THAT IS FOR THE LEAD ACTOR , GERARD BUTLER ……. I SAW THE MOVIE , I THOUGHT IT WAS GREAT , I THOUGHT HE WAS GREAT ! I DIDN’T THINK ANY LESS OF THE PERSIAN’S OR GREEK’S FOR KILLING THIER WEAK BABIES !!!!! PEOPLE DID THINGS LIKE THAT BACK THEN …. IT’S A MOVIE , SOME FACT SOME FICTION … BUT SOME PEOPLE JUST WANT TO HAVE THEIR ASS IN THE AIR ABOUT EVERYTHING !!! DOES EVERYTHING HAVE TO BE POLITICALLY CORRECT ALL THE TIME ? DOESN’T ANYBODY JUST HAVE FUN ANY MORE ? PROPAGANDA ? WOW ! YOU HAVE A MAJOR PROBLEM ! I AM SURE WHEN THIS MOVIE WAS BEING MADE , THEY SURE IN HELL DIDN’T THINK ALL THIS BULL—- WOULD START OVER IT ! PROPAGANDA MY ASS !!!!!!!! YOU PEOPLE NEED TO GET A LIFE !!!!!!!!!!
March 10th, 2007 at 11:14 pm
I hate to break it to you Linda, but they knew very well that this movie would cause this kind of reaction. There was disagreement among those involved in the making of the movie. Some didn’t even want to refer to the Persians as Persians because they knew the gross misrepresentation was going to piss tons of people off. Others pushed to make this happen though, so it’s natural for one to start crying propaganda.
A few facts are in order so that you may have a better understanding of what I mean. Ancient Persians are known for things like poetry, mathematics, astronomy, and human rights as opposed to savagery. In addition Greeks and Persians are similar-looking in appearance (genetically speaking). Given these facts, It’s easy to draw 2 not so rosy conclusions from this movie. The first is that such a blatant misrepresentation of Persians probably was not unintentional. The second is that this movie is associates the African ethnicity with evil and Anglos with good. Greeks and Persians do not even look like Anglos or Africans so I hate to break it to you but it’s not because of historical accuracy that the characters were cast the way they were. Basically the movie makers are trying to say that black man=savage. Tasteful, I think not.
March 11th, 2007 at 12:23 am
ONLY IF YOU HAVE A CHIP ON YOUR SHOULDER ARE YOU GOING TO THINK LIKE THAT ….. MOST PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE ENTERTAINED … SO THAT MEANS EVERYTHING THAT HAS BEEN TAUGHT ABOUT SLAVERY SHOULD BE WIPED OFF THE BOOKS TOO BECAUSE IT MAKES WHITE PEOPLE LOOK BAD ! GUESS WHAT ? THEY WERE BAD , BUT THAT WAS THEN , AND THIS IS NOW …… SO THAT MEANS WE CAN’T MAKE MOVIES ABOUT IT … BECAUSE THEY DO … AND I DON’T SEE EVERYONE IN THE STREET PROTESTING THOSE MOVIES , BECAUSE IT WAS “HISTORY ” …AND THIS IS ANCIENT HISTORY ! AND MYTHOLOGY MIXED IN … I THINK WE KNOW THAT ! AS FAR AS I CAN SEE IN THE MOVIE THEY WERE ALL SAVAGE , THATS THE WAY THEY FOUGHT , THEY DIDN’T HAVE GUNS , LIKE THE NICE SOLDIERS WE HAVE NOW ADAYS AND THE PEACEFUL WARS WE HAVE … IT’S A MOVIE !!!!!!!!!!!! THATS ALL , A MOVIE !!!! YOUR TAKING THIS WAY TOO SERIOUS !!!!!!!! AND I DIDN’T SEE ANYTHING LIKE YOUR ” BLACK MAN =SAVAGE ” ??????? THATS JUST NOT WHAT I GOT AT ALL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I GOT , THEY WERE ALL SAVAGE !! THAT’S THE WAY LIFE WAS BACK THEN TO SURVIVE !!!!!!!!!
March 11th, 2007 at 5:42 am
I kind of want to see this movie even after burning with anger from seeing the trailer. Guess it was the NIN song playing in background =) What I got from action in it leans toward what “Inform yourself” said. Will give my review once it comes out on DVD keke.
March 11th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
Linda if you are talking about history you’d better attend the library not the hollywood and I am not telling and boosting that Persians were angels fallen from heaven to Earth but if you would like to call the orgs and ogers shown in the movie as the “root of history” I would be glad to see your historical reference.??????? Let me remind all of you again if the movie were simply for entertainment it would be called The lord of the rings Episode four the invasion of Orgs. Not the historical battle of Thermopaylae valley.
March 11th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
If the sole intention were entertainment they wouldn’t bother themselves with having to answer or at least listen to every single of these comments and petitions. It surely worthed it and I consider it as propaganda and a truely effective one.THE NAME OF THE NATION CONSIDERED IN THE EYES OF YOUR TOP POLITICIANS AS THE AXIS OF (EVIL)IS PUT IN AS THE EVIL HIMSELF.Don’t be that naive.
March 11th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
There is one thing nearly everyone is missing. The movie is told as a narrative by a character. David Wenham’s “Delios” is narrating the story to the council and the other soldiers before the next battle. He is exaggerating. Zach Snyder made this clear in many interviews. Xerxes wasn’t really 12 feet tall, but he was very tall and through mythisizing (made that word up) and hyperbole, he becomes 12 feet tall and covered in gold. The executioner, the immortals, and that strong greyskin were not real monsters. They were people and through his story telling were exaggerated into monsters. It’s one Spartans view of the battle and that is how the movie is framed. It’s not Snyders or Millers view of the Persians, but a Spartan, who would hate them and demonize them.
March 11th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Also, in regards to skin tone and things, remember that the Persian Empire conquered many nations and enslaved them (documented fact) and forced them to fight. That is why there are Africans, Asians, Persians, etc etc all mixed up in the fights. Much like modern/communist Russia, Persia was spread out very far and encompassed many different ethnic looks.
March 11th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Robert- I would be really sincerely thankful if you showed me your historical document of Persian enslaving other races for as far as my knowledge goes the ancient name of Persia Iran from which your word Aryan is extracted means the land of free people, and not every conquest means slavery. Anyway maybe you can enlighten me assuming my history is lousy.
March 11th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
What the fuck is this conversation good for?
Art owes nothing to noone. It owes no history lessons, no respect, no nothing. People should stop interpreting things the way it suits them. Or shouldn’t they?
Because art is about this kind of controversy and clash of interpretations that cause people to talk about what goes on in this fucked up world that doesn’t belong to us anyway.
Historical accuracy is irrelevant. We all know this is a looooooooooooooong time ago and we all know it’s not accurate. We also know the Persians didn’t have a giant ugly dude fighting with them. And Ephialtes wasn’t a freak. And so on…
This could go on forever. Movies are movies. Get over it or beat up your wife!
March 11th, 2007 at 10:16 pm
yeah yeah yeah. The film dialog, something easily missed because of all the visual action, lays out the issue quite clearly. Leave free or die, I believe was the phrase for the west to rally around. Submit to the nation of fill in the blank was the threat of eastern kingdoms. It’s not real complicated, is it?
March 12th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
I saw the movie and I was far less than impressed. I was going in there expecting a very skewed and biased view on Persians, and that was not exactly what I got.
The movie had a very poor separation between “good guys” and “bad guys.” The good guys there warriors who killed babies and wounded soldiers, oiled themselves up and fought naked, and grunted like apes. The bad guys where wealthy, generous and had super hot belly dancers.
I realize that the movie is for entertainment purposes and proposes little historical fact, but either way, the Persians (to me) seemed like the more civilized and cultured group. After watching 300, I’d rather be a Persian than a Spartan anyday.
So what I’m getting to is that we Persians should not be upset about our depiction in that movie. It’s not even a good movie, and the characterization is so outrageous that it’s laughable. And in the end, we still look better than a bunch of homoerotic soldiers who can’t reason and have nothing better to do with their lives than beat up children.
March 12th, 2007 at 7:53 pm
Again, people should all respect the ancient civilizations and appreciate their services to the glory of mankind. I personally don’t accept to be entertained by humiliating a very serious topic -Persian Civilization in this case- without first understanding and appreciating that topic thoroughly. For educational aspects, I urge you all to spare a few minutes of your time (and nothing from you pockets) to watch the five clips on “The Engineering of An Empire - The Persians” on YouTube.
Those folks who believe the movie is just a “live free or die” movie, need to rethink their view with more sophistication. This motto is just a shell, a wrapping for more intricate messages. And that I call propaganda. It stretches from news media to movies to animations to public speeches and etc. In fact, there’s a theory that “democracy” comes hand to hand with “propaganda”. “What is it men cannot be made to believe!” - Thomas Jefferson, April 22, 1786.
I just don’t think I need to respond to those who believe Persian Kings were in the business of slavery! Persians were exactly opposite. The kings paid the labors on the empire projects based on their skills. This used to happen 2500 years ago, whereas almost 200 years ago, some people were used to enslave African Americans here in America. In fact, Cyrus the great liberated Jews in Babylon and let them return to Jerusalem. Cyrus, the founder of ACHAEMENIAN dynasty is known for his cultural and religious tolerance. I believe that slavery in the recent centuries is not even comparable to what Persians are known for.
March 13th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
I am Greek and is easy for me to say that this film is only a film a fiction and not a propaganda movie like so many others that Hollywood discover the right time…….
My dear friends from Iran the history of our nations has roots thousand years with great heritage in literature poetry arts democracy mathematics and so many more.
we fight many times in history but i don’t now about you but we the Greeks we respect civilizations like yours because they have contribute in the world in so many thinks.
If the same movie was directed from Hollywood and the Greeks look like monsters i will feel offended to.
But what can you do if someone doesn’t have history as a nation is easy to twist the history of others or to tell the history as it fits to the American government.
Just for the history Spartans they didn’t have beard.
March 13th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
by
March 13th, 2007 at 6:41 pm
THE ONLY PERSON THAT MAKES ANY SENSE IN THIS STUPID DEBATE IS — BOY-LOVER FROM ATHENS ! I ONLY AGREE WITH HIM ….. IT’S A MOVIE .. !!!!!!!!! AND I AM OUT !!!!!!!!!
March 13th, 2007 at 11:40 pm
300 was an awesome movie, it was the first movie out of Hollywood in decades that was not liberal propaganda. If anybody wants to talk about propaganda against the Iranians (which isnt such a bad thing) ,what about the Michael Moore trash films against the Bush administration? His movies are pure propaganda, trying to make weak minded Americans believe something that is not true. Most movies nowadays make it seem as if the white, middle class are the enemy and the bad guys. We have gotten so used to propaganda against our own country and army, that it comes as a shock when someone stands up and shows somebody else in a negative light. But the movie should not be taken as propaganda, it is meant to entertain, and that is what it does. Anything other than that is just people taking it too far.
March 14th, 2007 at 8:24 am
I have a really novel idea. Don’t see the movie if you don’t like the idea of it. Very similar to turn the channel on the television or turn the station on the radio or better yet, don’t give your money to the artists that have made the movie or the music. The movie was amazing and what you fail to realize is that some of us Americans after seeing a movie like this actually research to see what the true story was. Get over yourself and realize that how Persians were depicted “a few years” before you has a lot less relevance than you are giving it. I understand all your points…I really do. I just think that we are in a world that puts way too much emphasis on political correctness and have forgotten that entertainment and real history, unless that is the purpose of the film, don’t really mix. I mean come on, it’s usually a very few people’s perspective on a subject. Make your own movie. Stop complaining and do something about it. If you ahven’t seen the movie, you have absolutely no right to say anything one way or another. If you ahve seen it and didn’t like it, good for you, you have that right. Just as I do in thinking that your reasons are silly. This is not out of disrespect. It’s only my opinion. Just so you all know, after watching 300, I didn’t think any Persians actually looked like that or had sword type crab claws for arms. We Americans might be “uninformed” but even I know that much. Also, don’t make comments about what we might know or not know about your history, when I can guarantee that there are plenty of things that you assume or take as being true about ours without being truly enlightened on the subject. One final point: What the hell do you or I really know about what happened in 480 B.C. Seriously! Show me actual documentation of any battle of that time period that can truly be authenticated and then we’ll discuss inaccuracies. We can’t even do that about battles that happened last week.
March 14th, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Anti-Persian? Of course it is!!!It’s from the Greek percpective!!! The persians invaded mainland Greece!! They conguered the Greek cities of Asia Minor!!! What the Greeks are expected to look at them as rosy buddy’s?(well in reality the greeks simply saw the persians as unfree, not as “beasts”, the tradegy “Perses” by Aeschylus is a sympathetic view on the Persians, just as tradegy “The sacking of Militus” is a darker one). Miller’s comic is not supposed to be balanced. He wanted to glorify the Spartans and the ancient greek obession with the rule of law(which arguably did not exists in persia in the same way were the Great King ruled). In reality it’s more of a pat at the back of the West saying see we are just like them, obeying the rule of law and facing the same enemy. A more balanced account is Steven Pressfield’s “Gates of Fire”.
As an afterthought it’s interesting from an academic point to see that an event more then 3000 years ago still hurts. Hehehe seems that once marked by the Greeks marked forever:. And Thermopyle is only the beggining,before it was Marathon, after it Platea, Mycale, Cyprus, Kounaksa, Issos, Granikus, Gaugamela all leading to the last epic battle between GrecoRomans and Persians at Nineveh in 627 where the 50 year old GrecoRoman emperor Heracleus killed in personal battle the Persian General Ratazis and at least 3 other nobles ending Persian power for 300 years until a new Islamo-Persian dyansty rose taking dvantage of the dissolution of the Bagadad Khalifate. Then the Turks and the Mongols came and kaput Persia for another 300 years until the Savafids in the 15th century.
As for the civilazation issue. Yes persia had a high civilazation. But not unigue for ancient times. All that the Persians had so did the Egyptians, the Semitic people of Mesopotamia and Palestine, the Jews, the Indian and Tansoxanian peoples had. But only Greeks and the Chinesse had political debate and sophisticated theatre(with written and original plays, not simply an oratory tradition of myths). And that my friends is the base from whoch the uniguness of Western and Oriental civilazation comes.
See the movie for what it is. A movie with a ceratin percpective and use it as a motive to learn more about the personlaities and people involved. A thousand nations desended on Greece…that is a thousand histories to delve in….a thousand interprentations…..a thousand culutres….
A Hellenas
March 14th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
One final point that I forgot to make…My 3 year old boy knows the difference between movies and reality better than 90% of the people that actually think that an argument over historical accuracy is necessary when it comes to 300. He also whines alot less
March 14th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
A couple of comments.
Linda Hyatt - Why do you have to yell? You sound like you’re 12 years old. I don’t even know how you got into the movie, since it’s rated R.
Jake - I’ve run into so many mindless, bigoted, white supremacist, brainwashed, conservative a-holes on message boards, that I don’t have the time or inclination to respond to the filth you and you kind post everywhere. People like you are incapable of carrying on a rational discussion without fantasizing about murdering someone - usually a “lib-rul” or a darkie.
Simeon (from Greece) - You are one of the few and gracious people who can actually turn the tables and see things from a Persian perspective. Sensitivity is in short supply these days where debate is controlled by overbearing racist thugs like Jake. I was please to see some Greek historians made appropriate comments on this film.
Mehdi - I commend you for trying to have a reasoned debate and for actually being knowledgeable of history.
Some general comments:
Why do so many people get so agitated (see Linda) while defending “just a movie”. The anger is visceral. Usually from racists that are just tired of people pointing out racism where it exists. Why do you care that people are trying to have a rational discussion about a movie that some find, justifiably, insulting? I find this very curious.
Secondly, and most importantly, allow me to explain why I think many Iranians are so disturbed by this movie. Most of you have seen a plethora of documentaries and historic movies that feature Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, even Far East civilizations. Now, how many have seen ANYTHING in regards to the Persian Empire? I’d wager none of you, because they don’t make them. Iranians, especially the ones who don’t identify with the Islamic turn that Persian civilization has taken, are VERY proud of ancient Persian history and civilization. In many ways, it is the golden period for Persians. It is for this reason that to this day, the biggest holiday in Iran is the NowRuz - the Festival of Spring (equinox) that was celebrated in the days of Cyrus and has it’s roots in Zoroastrian Persia.
As much as Iranians are vilified in the modern age, the feeling has always been that the world cannot take away the pride and achievement of the Persia of antiquity. The Persian empire thrived WELL before Islam and was a leading light in the ancient world. A true civilization in a brutal period of human history.
Which brings us to 300. Yes, we all know it’s just a movie based on a comic book. But let’s face it, there are MANY ignorant people in this country and the first time they will even hear the term “Persian” is when they see THIS blockbuster movie. And Neil, let’s not play games here. The reason nobody complained about the graphic novel is because… it’s a comic book. Who reads comic books exactly? A small sliver of the population. This movie is breaking records at the box office. IT WILL LEAVE AN IMPRESSION with viewers that are totally ignorant of actual history. The impression is grotesque and completely divorced from the reality known to historians. If Miller was going to take such liberties, why does he still call his beasts “Persians”? Why does he recreate Xerxes in such a manner - as a black, gay, pierced freak? WHY call him Xerxes then? Why make the Persians black? Nothing wrong with being black, but I’m sure if the Irish were portrayed as black people, they might have a problem with that. These are historical figures and a people’s history that Miller is toying with for entertainment. And the negative effects are magnified due to the complete lack of historical documentaries that deal with the Persian empire.
Would this movie have been any worse if the Persians were depicted as they actually looked? At least the 1962 movie did this much - the movie that Miller claims is the inspiration for 300. There is no historical basis for a large African contingency in the Persian army.
Make no mistake, this is Frank Miller’s vision and his doing. He came up with this grotesque “stylization” of Persians. But it WAS the studio that decided to release this movie at this time in history, when King George is threatening to attack Iran.
Obviously, most Americans are incapable of feeling the emotions that an Iranian will feel when the golden era of their history is contorted in such a fashion. Name one other movie where a people have been depicted in such an inaccurate and insulting manner. Name one. Look, I’m no prude. I’m going to see this movie because it looks amazing from an action and artistic point of view. But to say that there are not racist elements at work here is just naive.
If you don’t think this movie is making a scary impression on people, just go to YouTube and read the comments under the trailers. Many, many comments about “kicking Persian ass”. This is from people who wouldn’t have known a Persian from a sofa a few weeks ago.
March 14th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
I am very sorry for those who try to ruin the atmosphere of this debate. If you do not have a historical fact, please don’t even bother to submit a comment, because you have nothing to support the basis of your ideas.
March 14th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
And last thing to say. I am very supprised to see that the group that defend the persians are very educated and have real historical facts, while seeing that the others are trying to put out the screaming fire. The scream that comes from the bottom of many hearts.
March 14th, 2007 at 6:02 pm
It was a good movie. I don’t see what there is to petition. They are not claiming it was a documentary or was how it actually happened.
March 15th, 2007 at 9:07 am
I spit on historical accuracy for there is none.
If historical writings were accurate there wouldn’t be so many of them. History is NOT objective. It’s a handy point of reference and a constant research for many but it’s so easy to become a “holy book” for “liberal-nationalist-i respect other cultures-know your history-blah-blah-blah” freaks.
Well, keep reading the historical books that suit you the most cause i got news for you: What people from conflict countries learn in school as history is slightly different between them and that’s the only FACT there is.
In the meantime come to Greece as tourists. We’ ll be glad to rip you off by selling u little pieces of our so called history. And nothing could be more true than our beloved National Board of Tourism’s publicity moto:
Live your MYTH in Greece!
And keep beating your wives. If you don’t know the reason… they sure do!
March 15th, 2007 at 10:20 am
Morgan, you are very educated and well spoken, as are many of the people that commented on here…It doesn’t matter! The point is the same right that allows you to comment on here is the same right that Frank Miller had to write it and everyone associated with the movie have to make it. Freedom of Speech allows for all of this, so exercising your forensic and argument skills is cool and all, but not really necessary. If these ignorant people that you speak of will have a lasting impression based on this movie exist, they surely won’t be on this site. As a matter of fact, anyone ignorant enough to take a movie that never claimed to be factual as the complete truth probably can’t turn on a computer. The Mean World Syndrome, just like many other theories and studies on how movies and television create the people we are, are really just a scapegoat taking away any responsibility we have to be informed and use the brains we have. Seriously, if someone hates a Persian based on the movie 300, their problems are much deeper-rooted than the movie and if the movie was never made, that same person would find something else to add to his already existing bigotry and ignorance. People put way too much blame and power in movies, music, and television. Going back to my original point, that DOES NOT NEED Historical Accuracy or a point that comes from a scholarly journal, If you don’t want to see movies as entertainment, then don’t watch them. That same freedom we have to make the movie is equally there for you to not give your money to see it. Isn’t it really hipocritical to get on here and discuss the reasons why this movie is so bad and that it should have never been made, when you helped fund it. Too many thoughts and words wasted on a subject that is unimportant in the grand scheme of the world. Even if I am totally wrong and the people that are tearing this movie down are completely right it doesn’t change the fact that movies like this will be made and the people making them have every right to do so.
March 15th, 2007 at 10:27 am
Also, History is always skewed, just as statistics. If you don’t know that, you are just as ignorant the Americans you throw criticisms at. I’m a White American with ancestory from Germany. Some of my family were linked to Nazi’s. I most certainly don’t try and defend what they did. I am NOT equating Persians to Nazi’s. I guess my point that I am trying to make is that “you” have absolutely no idea at all what Persians were like in 480 B.C. No matter what you read or history you learn, a normal human being wrote it in the first place and it was written with bias of some sort and a slant to some degree. No writer is 100% unbiased. Get over it. It is possible that the Persian Empire was as beautiful and as opposite as they are portrayed in movies, but it’s also possible they weren’t. You have no idea and can’t prove differently, so why try.
March 15th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
“I spit on historical accuracy for there is none.” Boy lover be carefull that you don’t fall into nilhisism.Your not yet but such comments tend to lead that way. Yes histories tend to not be objective but not all are as skewed as people tend to think. Take for example Thucydide’s “Pelloponisian War”- Their is a reason they “call him as the first “real” historian.
As for the objectivity of ancient texts remember that many of the good things we know about ancient Persia, such as the principle of truth and the nobility of the aristocracy we now them from Herodotus. So don’t bash the old guy. Skewed or not objective historiography is the child either of nationalism( and this is not a moral judgment just a statement of fact but take a look at school history books in late 19th century and early 20th century Europe and hitory as it’s taught in the developing world)or personality cult(see Hitlerite Germany, Stalinism and Bruce Cummings(a Korean War revisionist historian of UChicago) on the Kim Jong Il and Kim Il Song cult.
Finally on the Spartans killing unhelathy children…that’s largely Athenian propaganda. I am not saying that overtly physically unhealthy children were not put to death at birth. I think that might had been a general trend in civilazations before the modern expansion of medicine, and I have to say that on this my history knoweldge is limited(although I do know that both Ancient Greeks and Chinnese tended to kill of unwanted female babies. But babies with mior deformities considered probably able to survive but not “perfect” to become spartans were ussauly given to helot families to raise.
And the above brings me to another point that proves that neither Miller nor the movie makers really whre targeting to create an accurate historical account. I haven’t seen the movie yet, but I have read the book. Their is little to no reference to the Helots. And this is done I think on purpose. Presenting that the spartans had a segregated society wouldn’t fit the books attempt to extrrapolate their image to western society. And this is a huge hisotrical distortation. Spartan Helots were an intergal but segregated part of Spartan society. And part of their role was to fight as light infantry with the Peers phalanx. In Platea an 100.000 greek army faced a 150.000 Persian army. 50.000 to 70.000 of the greeks were light infantry and a large part of it where Spartan helots. The same goes for Thermopyle. 300 peers probably had 300 to 400 helots that would fight as light infantry. I d beleive that they were freed and send home by Leonidas( sources on the numbers are Collony’s “Ancient Greece and Rome at War” and Han’s Delbrucks “History of Warfare”).
Look historical event’s are always interpreted by diffrent people in diffrent ways. Miller and the movei makers have their own interprentetion. The viewers will have their own. I do beleive that the time of the screening, with tensions between the U.S and Persia just high(and for me as a Greek it will alwys be Persia,just as France in Greek is called Gallia form the Gauls rather then Francia from the Frank, the greek language kept the old names of most european nations ,the ones before the migrations of the late roman empire) is inappropriate but I think that bashing at the movie as anti-persian is equally foolish. The movie is what it is. The interprentetions taht one can make are anti-persian or anti-american or even anti-whatever. Well that’s your problem. Personally I found the book pro-Spartan which is refreshing for someone that grew up in the Greek educational system where Sparta is demonized and Athens raised to super-stardom so the Modern Greek republic can pat itself in the back that it’s a direct disedent of the “good” Athenians and not the “bad” Spartans. Spartans had a higher sense of comunity, philopatria and justice then most other Greeks. They weren’t devils. I do think though that their virtues could stand out without the need to demonize the Persians( as Pressfield’s masterwork proves). In reality I think that the comic was a lot more fair to the persians rather then the movie. I don’t remeber the Immortals as beasts and some of the grotesgue creatures of the movie’s trailer in the comic. Indeed I was left from a feeling in the comic that the Spartans tended to be a lot more savage in their behaviour then the Persians.
What do you guys thik? How much really is the movie faithfull to the comic? I haven’t seen the movie but form the trailer and the debate I have afeeling they really departed form the comic.
March 15th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
Well guess I’ve commented enough by now but let me just mention that I ally myself with the guy calling himself Morgan quite an impressive expression of what the majority of Iranians here have been trying to say.
March 15th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
i hate sand people all they do is colmplain
March 15th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
My fellow Greek Konstantinos… I proclaim my self a nihilist when it comes to historical accuracy right now and i thank you for giving me an apropriate “-ism” to lay my head under.
But as a nihilist i will probably do less damage to the world than those who turned history to a religion.
Can i finally beat the hell out of my wife now?
March 15th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
its a friggin movie! It is meant to entertain. Chad’s comment says it all. “One final point that I forgot to make…My 3 year old boy knows the difference between movies and reality better than 90% of the people that actually think that an argument over historical accuracy is necessary when it comes to 300. He also whines alot less” You people need to calm down and enjoy a movie. And I didn’t say anything racist Morgan, and I am not a racist just by the way. When I mentioned that propaganda against the Iranians wasnt such a bad thing, I meant the nation by the way, not the people living in our country. The Iranian government is ruled by crazy, facist, sexist men. Americans need to be aware of the situation over there.
March 16th, 2007 at 1:24 am
Boy Lover…..Sorry no, no wife-beatings permitted. Pay rusfeti first and grigorosimo if you want rusfeti to work…
As for Nilhisim better then history as religion….I think that both are just cowardly(no i am not insulting you…read on. Religion is the provison of ready answers to those who either don’t have the time or inclination to look for their own answers. Nilhilism is simply a refusal to even look for answers. One might kill millions but the second kills the “self”. Both thus are failures of being “human” as human entails philospphia=love for wisdom=quest for answers=attainment of godhood. Personally I rather be a “sceptist”:) Much safer for all and me this way.
And Jake has a point. I love persian history(go katafrakts go..kill them pesky romans!!!!)and believe that persians are great people(any I have met until now have three things in common a)their intelligent b) they are friging good looking, male or female c) they are friendly) but the regime over their is really unworthy of them as people(just as the last Shah’s). Fortunetly the U.S dosen’t need to lift a finger. The people are demanding democracy and even a part of the clergy are starting to question the regimes raison d’etat. Persians,Armenians,Jews,Baluchis ,Azeris and Kurds in Iran are sophisticated enough to overthrow a bunch of outdated politicians. They won’t even need to lift a finger.:)
March 16th, 2007 at 2:07 am
Ok, Dude… i hear ya. Can’t a guy exaggerate to show a point anymore?
History could sometimes, much like religion, be the provison of ready answers to those who either don’t have the time or inclination to look for their own answers.
You have a better and more patient way with the words. I’ll borrow yours then.
I admit it. My wife beats me. I kind o’ like it though!
March 16th, 2007 at 2:50 am
Boy Lover we are Greeks…..we are expected to exaggerate in evrything we do:)
March 16th, 2007 at 5:45 am
umm for those who didnt watch the movie there were like 5 persian mutants(confirmed) tops
and i personaly think that the spartans did quite a lot of fucked up shit in 300 to balance out the persians. Starting with the base of a clif littered with spartan baby skulls, the raising of the children is simply brutal, the persian corpses as motar for a wall, the other wall made entirely of corpes, driving surrendering persians of a cliff, and we must not forget the nonchalant killing of downed and pleading persians while Leonidas enjoys a snack
Yeah the spartans exactly dont walk out of 300 looking like the “good guys” we all want to be. both sides seem pretty assfaced, so lets all take a chill pill
March 16th, 2007 at 5:46 am
if my spelling and grammar are not up to scratch….well i’m sleepy
March 16th, 2007 at 7:32 am
this is for all “outraged” Iranians. its getting to the point where know ones going to care anymore, it seems to me that your “peoples” get outraged over every little thing and its just obnoxious at this point. Do you have any leading community figures who aren’t purely reactionary? its a Hollywood film and seeing it did not make me want to get up and kill any Arab in sight. nor did it make me want to condone a US led invasion of iran. Of course its not all true its a comic book!!! the day you start taking comic books seriously is the day i stop taking you seriously. And if you want to talk about aw Hollywood set up to get Iran you are in fact an idiot. Alexander the great and the 300 are movies based on history (granted they are dramaticized and not always accurate) during a time when sword and sandals films are in. they make money, nobody cares or is thinking about the current situation in Iran while watching them but you apparently. I know plenty of people who watched both and are very wary of the US media and no one has mentioned Iran till now and thats because of bloggers like you who never let us forget that you have to have a say in every whiny instance. do yourselves a favor and lay off maybe then the mainstream will take u seriously. honestly America and Europe are wary of Iran because they feel that its a fanatical state and your reactions are just reaffirming their fears. besides you think Fahrenheit 911 was pro America? not all films are for America and against you. i say America and you because your constant over reactions to everything are polarizing the world, cut the crap its just cringing at this point
March 16th, 2007 at 10:13 am
I am Sicillian / German, and cannot for the life of me understand how a PEOPLE could be offended by a movie. Should I be angry at Hogen’s Heros for it’s inaccuracy in depicting Germans or The Godfather for it’s disperaging depiction of the Italians? In fact, by the same view, I should HATE Gladiator, Goodfellas, and The Producers. Why then di I not? Do I not see the blatently racist depictions of my ancestry and brethren? Am I just ignorant to the facts?
No. The fact is, in America, we understand that a movie is just a movie. Yes you could argue the social ramifications of ANY art which takes historical events as it’s subject matter, and I can describe the sociological butterfly effect as well as any. But anyone who PROTESTS this movie should remember the words of Martin Luthar King, Jr. who said: “Free your mind, and the rest will follow.
In short, I do not feel the social effects of TV and movies on my ancestral pride; I feel the effects of a few ignorant people who take what they have “learned” in a movie and use it as a catalist for political debate over current issues.
As I have mentioned, I am Sicillian/German. That means, if the ramifications where truely that daunting, I would be ridiculed for being a Nazi-Mobster, as this is truely the way MY people have been depicted in every movie and television show since there was such a medium.
The truth is, after watching the movie three times, I can honestly say that I did not have any ill feelings aimed at the Persians (and certainly not the persians of present day). What I saw was a movie, not a politically inspired racism campaign.
What HAS hurt my view of persians is the fact (not loosely based) that the government of one country would take that same movie and use it to launch a political conspiracy theory and allege racism in Americans (of this day) for watching the movie. I am American (AND Italian AND German) and I find insult in the way this anti-300 spear campaign depicts American society.
You see, the same argument can be used to protest the protests!
In summary: We need not let paranoia of hidden meaning is movies be our focus when the world is full of REAL propaganda for that…
Like disparaging America and her government for producing a movie, when in fact OUR government does not produce movies. Who’s warped view of history is that?
Speaking strictly as the son of two european immagrants:
By the way, why did they rename the Jewfish and not the Guinea Pig?
Maybe I should protest American schools for allowing them in the classroom! What do you think?
March 16th, 2007 at 11:13 am
Wop…Can I get an Amen? Well stated and well-received.
March 16th, 2007 at 11:36 am
Amen, brother.
March 16th, 2007 at 11:49 am
Amen here too!
March 16th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
Greenrascal and others,
First off, I believe this forum has been provided by The Columbus Movie Guy as a place to discuss the so-called “Anti-300 debate”. It’s rather insulting that you refer to solicited expression of opinion as… “whining”. If you feel that debating this topic is beneath you, then why participate? And why tear down others who seek a rational debate in an appropriate venue? Nobody will (or should!) Actually stop this film or keep ANYONE from seeing it. As I said before, It’s puzzling to see how some people seek to shut down any DISCUSSION of the controversial aspects of the film.
Secondly, Iranians are not Arabs. I wonder why people are still not aware of this? It gets back to the fact that there is very little historical coverage of Persian history in various Western media outlets to provide context for the public’s perceptions of Iran and Iranian history - particularly PRE-ISLAMIC Persian history. The same vacuum of context is not found for any other major civilization (save for Africa). This is what sets Iran apart from other movie portrayals of other “peoples”. What most people DO see is modern media representations of Iran - usually consisting of bellicose theocrats and chanting religious fanatics. The modern, theocratic image of Iran is something that most westernized Iranians find rather embarrassing, hence the protective attitude towards pre-Islamic Persian civilization and its remarkable accomplishments. If you troll the message boards that are discussing this issue, you will encounter countless inaccurate “historical” defenses of the 300 version of Persians. People are going out of their way to show that Persians were indeed savages and barbarians (and black). Yes, most of these people are ignorant, but there are many of them out there. And prior to the movie 300, they were most likely unaware of “Persians”.
Wop,
It’s irrelevant what the current Iranian government is saying about this, since they could care less about Pre-Islamic Persian history. It’s a wonder they haven’t razed the ruins of Persepolis by now. This is a concern to Iranians who cherish their pre-Islamic history. And nobody has suggested that Americans are racists for “watching a movie”. Frank Miller’s creative direction and WB’s timing for release are the real subject of the criticism.
The petition may be silly (especially since it doesn’t even mention Frank Miller), but it is nonetheless a non-violent expression. It’s a petition - it does no harm to anyone. It’s not like the Iranians are issuing fatwahs and rioting in the streets. They are just expressing disappointment to the WB studios. Why is that so wrong?
I can’t explain myself more clearly than I did on post #43. If you cannot understand the thesis and prefer to call it “whining”, then so be it. My apologies for being so long winded and my thanks for the discussion.
March 16th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
well morgan its good to see that youve managed to undermine my comments with nittygritty crap like calling arabs persians, wow that really turns it around, youve totally changed my views towards the east, the mohammed cartoon thing, alexander the great, 300 none of those caused gross obnoxious over reactions by the muslim community!! im sure their are perfectly civilised people in iran and from what ive heard they hate their leaders and are in the vast majority so how bout a lil less whining cause there is no other word for it and a little more action, if they hate their ridiculous stone age image then they should change it. instead of crying fire every time someone points that fact out or makes a movie depecting them as barbarians. last time i checked a lot of countries around that area are barbaric even parts of turkey are still incredibly brutal…so all in all i think cartoons and movies are the least of muslim problems.
March 16th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Ok, there are TWO points that seem to be reitterated over and over again in this discussion:
1- The movie is not, nor was intended to be historically accurate.
Fine. Then here’s the question: why put it in the context of history at all then? It’s like if I made a movie about the Civil War. But instead, lets make the Confederates robots, and make General Lee an alien from outer space. And lets make the Union a bunch of orcs! And instead of using guns, everyone used magic… Basically, what I’m trying to say is that if you’re going to make a piece that is revolved around history, you have to at least respect history. I know I can’t speak for what the ancient Persian empire was like, but can’t we all agree that there were no ogres with sword arms?
If this story was truly about the honor, courage and glory of 300 Spartans that wanted to stand up for what they believed, then the 12 foot tall Xerxes served no real purpose in telling the story.
2- After viewing the movie, no one here has had their opinions of modern day Iranians skewed to view them in a negative light. Good! I am glad, and God bless every one of you.
But please understand, the outrage does not stem from the misinterpretted view of Persians, but from the fact that there WILL be people who will have a skewed view of them after watching this movie. To sit back and say “no one is dumb enough to see 300 and think that’s how Persians really are” is completely naive. Believe it or not, there are Americans that are ignorant and racist enough to go see 300 and coupled with current tensions between the 2 nations, will allow themselves to dislike Iranians for completely no reason. And these are the people that will vote in people that will declare war on Iran. THAT is what the outrage is all about… at least to me.
March 16th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
Morgan- Grennrascal….be carefull that you don’t start the personal attacks. Anyway I really think that people on both sides are exaggerating a bit. Something natural for exiled Iranian’s that wish to preserve a anit-islamic image of their country in a West that increasingly only interacts with the Islasmic one. I really think though that it’s a lost battle barring large changes in Iran itself. To tell the truth I don’t think that Iran will ever lose it’s Islamic character. It will undoubtetly democratize, and probably mitigate the militancy, but a complete seperation of state and church will probably be impossible. The best they can look to is the Eastern Orthodox model were the church is a dominated part of the state apparatus.
Morgan- I don’t think that greenrascal is so fascist as you point him out ot be.
And greenrascal I don’t thnk that the central debaters on the anti-300 side are whinners. Most of them present rather articulate arguments of why they think the movie is biased and legitimate fears that it can be perceived by people in a certain way. Their mistake is that they tend to exaggerate those fears an exaggeration compounded to their own perceptions of the U.S populace….(hehehe I am starting to think that Robert Jervis was right on his Perceptions and Misconceptions as a cause of War article).
I think that the thread has turned to a “western perceptions of Iran through the media” one. Interesting but probably needing it’s own space. And I think that the movie has been debated to the full extend it could be debated in this forum.
March 16th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
Morgan, I have chosen to answer the question you have asked us all:
“Why do you care that people are trying to have a rational discussion about a movie that some find, justifiably, insulting?”
I cannot speak for the rest of the posters, but I will tell you why I care:
Freedom.
The freedom to express yourself (as biased as that expression be) without the fear of oppression.
Though your opposition, such as Chad have called you:
“very educated and well spoken”
-Chad
YOUR comments about others have been less flattering:
“I’ve run into so many mindless, bigoted, white supremacist, brainwashed, conservative a-holes on message boards, that I don’t have the time or inclination to respond to the filth you and you kind post everywhere. People like you are incapable of carrying on a rational discussion without fantasizing about murdering someone - usually a “lib-rul” or a darkie.”
WOW!
“…you and your kind…”
“…people like you are incapable of carrying on a rational discussion…”
“…conservative a-holes…”
(I especially like the deliberate phonetic red-neck slang: “lib-rul”)
Damn, it seems really easy to make it seem as though YOU are a fanatical racist.
Even though I do not believe you to be a racist, your comments, when examined for the purpose of finding racist remarks, yield very interesting results. You see, ANY medium of free expression could be picked apart to reveal a slant in any direction the examiner wishes. Certainly you could say that MY comments are racist because I mentioned being German/Italian several times (yes that was calculated to prove this point) and you could say that Chad was racist because he aligned himself with another German (myself), or that I called him “brother” in response.
Shakespeare said it best:
“Even the Devil can quote Scripture for his own purpose”
If it were simply that “people are trying to have a rational discussion about a movie” I would have not posted here, but the fact is this is hardly a discussion of the movie itself. Though there have been bits of the movie mentioned, they have been mentioned almost exclusively in evidence of political or socio-philosophic views.
That aside, the protesters are asking that a movie and its creators be held ACCOUNTABLE in some way for the opinions they expressed (whether intended to be racist or just to make money). To serve that end is to potentially serve the end of censorship and oppression as well.
Yes, disparaging another group for expressing an opinion against a group you perceive yourself to belong to is ALSO discrimination!
My point is, be mad at the people who wrote the graphic novel or be mad at the movie writers, if need be… But do not disparage an ENTIRE GROUP (such as the movie’s patrons, or the American people) because a few expressed an opinion that offense you. That would be akin to hating all Germans for the holocaust or all Mexicans for your Tequila hangover.
Some of us believe the issue here is a tendency for people to align themselves into groups and then point fingers at other groups for their group’s current situation.
Ridiculing a group for them ridiculing you. How sad. What ever happened to “sticks and stones” and all that? (Which, by the way, we teach to our children so they learn to have a thick skin about others’ opinions — and stop wining )
If you need to point fingers, point them at individuals not groups.
The actual INTENT of the movie cannot be proved one way or the other, anyway, so we will never actually KNOW what was intended.
Maybe the writers were inspired as children by the heroism of the Spartans as depicted in the early ’60s graphic novel… or perhaps they are writers and not historians and just held to the directors’ credo of being true to the original work… Maybe they are hard-core government agents who specifically selected a work which was riddled with anti-Iranian sentiments (unlikely, but who knows).
The fact is, there is no proof nor any more than circumstantial evidence that the latter is more correct than the former. Therefore all accusations of intended oppression are unfounded.
Simply hurling unsubstantiated accusations of racism at a group of movie-goers and -makers for their attempt at artistic expression, NO MATER HOW OFFENSIVE, would undermine the freedom of expression of ALL people (a group which I am MOST proud to count myself among) to express themselves.
For those of you ‘historian’ posters:
History is riddled with stories of people being oppressed for voicing what they believe, especially when that opinion opposes the common view. Without those people — like Socrates, Jesus, and even the widely offensive Larry Flint — we would not be able to have this discussion and express OUR opinions right now.
The reason I have a problem with a movie being blamed for disparaging a race (which should be self evident if you read this sentence a few time out loud), is NOT that it has actually degraded that race nor that there are groups flinging unproven anti-Iranian accusations, but the fact that the hubbub that has been a result of it disparages the HUMAN race in perpetuating race- and group-ism in the name of stopping what it practices.
Did we not learn from the Inquisition that opinions (not actions based on them) should be free of accountability?
Did the Crusades not show the folly of forcing our opinions on others?
Do White Euphemists not continually teach us the evil in hate of another group… ANY other group!?
I think its safe to say we all are posting here because we feel strongly about this TOPIC… NOT this movie.
Well, it is my contention that there would be no sense of morality if we did not consider others’ opinions. The fear I have is that we will become so scared of offending others (and the possible ‘outrages’ associated with them) that we will stop voicing our opinions to each other. I posted here because I care about the freedom of expression. I posted here because I care about the HUMAN race more than I care about the German race… The Italian race… And yes, the Persian race.
It annoys me that everyone is so willing to group-up and take arms against a group of movie-goers, movie-makers, and in fact a WHOLE COUNTRY in the name of reducing racism. It seems to me, we should be grouping up with the HUMAN race in an attempt to cure our social dilemmas, not further recreate history by pointing fingers of anti-racism at yet another group (this time for making a movie).
As a member of the richest country in the world… The legendary capitalism which is repeatedly ridiculed for worshiping the almighty dollar… I believe the movie was made purely for monetary gain, not social upheaval.
While 300’s treatment of history was comical, and the portrayal of the ancient Persians AND Spartans was inaccurate at best, we must ask ourselves the alternative. Could you make a movie which offended NO group? What if we were all tasked with the vast (and nearly impossible) task of offending no one in our expressions?
Of coarse not! we can’t even assure our POSTS will not offend. Hell, some of my favorite movies and TV shows have offend nearly EVERY group (Blazing Saddles, All in the Family, etc.), but that is what allowed me to grow up without such racial hang-ups.
Damn! In a few hundred years we will all be one race anyway. World travel, global economy, and the continued need to procreate will see to that. (Then, I suppose, we will find other ways to distinguish each other, such as geographical location, eye color, which fork we use first, etc.)
The simple truth is: we ARE a race of racists. Our minds are powerful pattern-matching machines which continually distinguish and group everything around us. It is how we understand our environment. What would make us think that we can stop doing it?
No, the answer is not to hold accountable those who offend you by their opinions; the accountability must lie within ourselves that we take offense at ignorance and stoop to ignorance in our reactions. There is no human that is inherently better than me, and no human which I am inherently better than. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
EVERYONE.
THEIR opinion.
In a world that has as many difficulties in dealing with one another as we have, do we really need more arrant finger-pointing?
It’s time to stop pointing fingers and start pointing the way.
Join the Human race.
But what do I know, this is only MY opinion.
March 16th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Greenrascal, I have to assume that you have problems reading. THIS IS NOT A MUSLIM ISSUE. Like I said, if you think discussion and debate is whining, then don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out.
March 16th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Wop, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I actually agree with much of what you say. And what I don’t agree with, I’ve already adressed (post #43) and will not rehash. Let me just say that people who insist on telling me to stop “whining”, KNOW they are being intentionally confrontational. If I take my time in an appropriate area of debate and write a reasoned point of view - I don’t appreciate being told that I’m “whining”. If you want to address specific points of my argument, that’s fine.
I think it’s also a bit unfair to quote Chad about myself and then compare that to my response to Jake. I found Jake’s post offensive in a very familiar right-wing way. I don’t believe I was rude at all to Chad. Two different people entirely.
BTW Konstantinos, I didn’t call greenrascal a racist, etc. I call Jake a racist right-winger.
Anyway, I think you are right. There is nothing more to say on this subject. Thanks for the conversation. It’s nice to discuss issues with intelligent people. This kind of back and forth would be nearly impossible on the Yahoo boards.
Peace out.
March 16th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Morgan:
I, too, appreciate a good point-counterpoint debate to silly rantings. And I do agree that we have found that here today (with a few exeptions).
In the immortal words of Ken Watanabe in another historically inacurate movie: “This has been a GOOD conversation.”
Peace to you too. And all of you.
But Morgan and I were wrong about one thing: There is more to say on the subject. There is always more to say when attempting to make sence of situations which ride the gray (not black and white).
But this is the only thing I wish to add:
We all know the horrors that face our world with repect to racism. Though maybe not to the same degree, we are ALL continually hurt by racism.
That said…
The only outcome I can forsee to the recent upheval concerning the possibly racial depiction of the ancient Persians in the movie “300″, is that the conspirists will inevidably use the incident (however manufactured) to support further such claims in other medias and situations, and that the outsiders to that group will undoubtably use their reactions (no matter how sensible)to justify calling them winers.
I believe remembrance of the golen rule would serve Humankind:
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
But I would add:
“And stop wining about the ones who don’t.”
Peace, all.
March 16th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
Oh, one other thought on my last post…
I do believe Japan would be justified in being insulted that hollywood made Tom Cruise its last samurai.
Even I found THAT offensive
March 16th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
I agree who cares… It’s not meant to be a historic movie… Just for entertainment, so people who don’t like to watch a historic movie and don’t want to be bothered to read about history will go and watch it to get entertained… and so next time they hear about Iran or Persia they remember: oh those brutal and uncivilized people! Oh yeah USA should bomb them all! like who cares…
————————
To Wop : nobody gets a bad feeling about samurias or japanese people after watching “The Last Samurai” , you know any?
March 16th, 2007 at 7:30 pm
Morgan- a)I did not say you called him a racist, I said the way you talk =”It’s puzzling to see how some people seek to shut down any DISCUSSION of the controversial aspects of the film.” about him is the usual way one talks about fasists. Diffrent thing fasisct and racist,a fasisct is not neccesarily a racist and a racist is not neccesarily fasisct….I pretty sure that most white supremasist’s in the U.S are anti-statists. Fasisct cannot be anti-statist they are the quessentiall statist philosophy together with state-capitalist communism.
b) I do know you called Jake a racist.
But I am once more interested to see that any debate among U.S citizens always ends up a Left vs. Right talk. And always I am interested to see how much animosity is there….and I am perplexed where it omes from. Claiming that one of the two sides “rules” the U.S.A and prosecutes the other is b……t. But what can you expect from people the haven’t lived in their history real totalatarianism in the U.S. American so called nazis(which the Left finds everywhere) are a joke. The old Romanian Phalanx was more scary, organized and ideologicly articulate then them….American liberals which the Right calls communists? Give me a break…they don’t even come close. The whole Right-Left wing devide in the U.S. is watered down when contransted with the true left-right devide in interwar europe. Why the hell do americans wanna have that kind of a devide. I would tell them WAKE UPPPPPP and see how lucky you are that you didn’t pass it.
WOP- I see that according to your listing of enforcement of ideas that the West is the usual “bad” guy, inquisition, crusades, white (idiot) supremasists. You claim to be culture blind but you singal out only western actions as imposition of ideas. Ok then please answer this to me.
Christianity had expanded within the Roman Empire long before Constantine made it the state religion(baad worst thing that can happen to any religion) and it got the sword and seal power. Guess what mate, Islam expanded only to areas where the Islamic armies ruled..only where they alredy had the sowrd and seal….Why this diffrence? What happened to the several million christians and zoroastrians of Asia Minor, Mesopotamia and Egypt? According to Muslim revisionists they all!!!!!! voluntary changed their religion..no no Islam did not force it’s ideas on several million Persians, Egyptians, Syrians, Plamyrans, Galatians, Armenians, Azeris, Greeks, Isaurians, Kappadokians etc. Wow!!!It’s that great..well I am afraid that it’s not. But the only thing you hear is how the West is bad and evil and the rest of the worlds cultures are good. Guess what being defeated dosen’t mean that you are the GOOOOOOOD guy. It only means you were lessss efficient in your warmaking. And that has nothing to do with your color or intellect.
If you where really as cosmopolitan as you say you are, you would had cited attempts to impose ideas form other culture’s histories as well(Wahabit Islam or the prosecution of Shiiates anyone!!!). The only excuse I can think is that you simply haven’t studied the history of other cultures. If not, the libaries and internet is at you disposal. Cosmopolitisism is tied with a continuous strive for education. Simply bashing fasism and racism is simply not enough. Now you will probably say that you condemn idea imposition from anyplace but the fact that you chose only events from the history of one culture should make you rethink your position.
I am probably seeming to bash you but really I am not. I am simply trying to point out to you that being truly cosmopolitan is one of the hardest things. Our biases continuasly com into paly even subconsiously. We are at continuous war with ourselves.
Personally I am not a full cosmopolitan. I can’t simply see all cultures as equal because although all simply hav their dark sides some are darker. On the other hand I am optimistic that most global cultures will converge on the western model without the need of civilazation wars. Look at S.E Asia and China. Islam will simply have a harder time due to the reversal brought by the Mongol conguest of Bagdad(The worst thing that happend to Islamic culture , the mongols simply destroyed higher islamic culture).
Finally Ideas are not “natural” or “harmless” Ideas are the second most dangerous thing in the world after human greed for power and control to assuage the fundemental human fear of the unknown. Because they legitimate that Greed. All ideas seek to answer the Human need for control and power in order to combat the primordial fear. Thus no idea is “natural” or “innocent”. They are tools.
March 16th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
Wow I got that wrong. It not Romanian Phalanx it’s the Iron Guard….sorry my bad
March 16th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
I just want to say that I’m impressed by this debate. As an Iranian, I want to thank you ALL for taking part in this debate. I’m sure people have read and learned from the useful discussions here. They might not be entertained as much as in a movie theater, but the time people put in this issue is exactly what was needed as a small token of appreciation to an ancient civilization. I want to personally thank Morgan for his eloquence and the effort in expressing most of the concerns of people like me. Obviously, I’m not even close to him in being “well spoken”. A non-political, reasonable debate based on mutual respect for the sake of elucidating (or avoiding) misinterpretations of somewhat less educated people after watching the movie is all that matters.
As Wop mentioned, we’re all a part of human race. And I want to add that, as humans, I think we all need to research, understand, respect and appreciate the human history. “Truth for the sake of truth”. I personally would rather to raise my voice for civilizations which I’ve had no direct physical relationships with, and I think it’s far more effective if non-Persians also communicate their concerns on this debate.
And as always, it’s painful (since you hear it over and over) to hear someone assuming Persians are Arabs. Although I have no strong feelings for Arabs, but this is a very common misconception that has led to many premature judgments in the world today. The time frame that we’ve been talking about in this discussion is even 1100 years before Islam. Even the modern I’m sure educated people debating here are pretty well aware of this, but I request you all to spread your knowledge among your network of friends. History shows that it’s the bulk of the people who decide what the destiny and decisions of a nation are supposed to be. The role of elite people in my opinion is to try to increase the awareness of others, especially in democratic states where there’s a flat hierarchy when it comes to people.
I know this debate is about the 300 movie, but please let me get a little bit off topic. Bear with me for a couple of lines on a political example. The international community is now very concerned with the Iranian president, Ahmadinejad. I admit that he has been embarrassing, and many many Iranians have the same stand point as mine. For me, his being selected as president is all the reason I need to put my effort on increasing the awareness and educating my people so that they can not be “deceived” by such a man ever again. This is not a proper venue for this discussion, but I just wanted to emphasis each individual’s responsibility in acting as an intelligence bridge between him/her self and other members of his/her society and the possible consequences of forgetting this role of ours.
Peace to you all.
March 17th, 2007 at 12:01 am
Konstantinos,
“WOP- I see that according to your listing of enforcement of ideas that the West is the usual “bad” guy, inquisition, crusades, white (idiot) supremacists.”
Firstly: I never said that White Supremasists are “idiots”. In fact, I have met one or two who were FAR from idiotic, but that’s a whole other discussion.
Secondly: I do not consider ANY group the ‘bad guy’. I have, in fact, BEEN one of the ‘bad guys’ to other cultures (first Gulf).
Simply pointing out that we should learn from the history we all know. The sites given were simple examples that reflect the thoughts at hand, meant to convey the ideas and views I had to put forth for understanding. Nothing else.
Yes I could have sited the more obscure references such as the Nanjing Massacre to illustrate the point… or I could just convey the experiences which led to the compassion and cosmopolitan attitude you seem unsure I posses…
Such as the old woman in Luzon who begged me to marry her sixteen year old daughter, so that she may return to the U.S. with me and escape the oppression of the Marcos’. Or the large Japanese man who yelled “No Yankee” at me and my boys while turning us away from his bar outside Yokosuka. Or the woman I saw trying to sell her baby for crack in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. Or the outraged mob of average people that caused the death of my fiancé in Manila (God rest her soul).
Lastly: Am I a true cosmopolitan?
Well…
My first love was Pilipino/Irish, I married a Columbian and have awesome Columbian kids. My mother still flies the German flag under the Stars and Stripes. I fought in Storm AND Shield, and personally witnessed the devastation when Mt. Pinatubo covered Clark, and hell, my west-pac jacket has more countries on it than buttons.
I go to Europe once or twice a year, and every other year (for two months) I volunteer my time abroad for The Red Cross.
My knowledge of other cultures comes from cooking with a fisherman and his wife in Knosos, talking politics and military history with a group of English-speaking business men in Japan, learning how to read the ‘history of creation’ from Jugoudi (an aboriginal shaman) at Ayer’s Rock, aiding in S&R ops in the Philippines and Indonesia, etc..
My views have been shaped by many days and nights spent in the company of hundreds of people, from a vast array of cultures, living all around the world.
The beauties of their cultures – the Buddhas of Thailand, properly spiced baloot, Sacred Falls, REAL curry, New York pizza, etc. – and the horrors of their cultures – Manila riots, Olongapo’s hunger-induced prostitution, Trade Center attack, the fact that the Sphinx now faces a KFC – still linger on.
The lesson I have learned is that we are all not so different. We all laugh when something is funny; we all cry when a loved one dies; and we all essentially want others to leave us alone to live out our lives in peace.
So I will practice what I preach and do just that…
Peace and good night, all.
March 17th, 2007 at 12:07 am
Arya Rastgoo,
“nobody gets a bad feeling about samurias or japanese people after watching “The Last Samurai” , you know any?”
I stand corrected… They get a bad feeling about Tom Cruise (at least I do)
March 17th, 2007 at 12:38 am
Geewizz guys, dont twist this debate to racialism. stop talking about races, and start talking about the movie “300″ and its beautiful 300 historical mistakes.
In my point of view the movie was pretty good, and much “entertaining.”However I felt nauseated for the 99% of the movie being shot in slow motion.
March 17th, 2007 at 2:15 am
WOP- I see I was too aggressive and wrong in my argument. Probably the result of staging an allnighter for writing a paper and my academic background. I beg forgivness. You are by far more cosmopolitan than me and truly seem from your story to live by your beliefs an admirable trait in any human being and a truly hard feat to achieve . Accept my respect and please do forgive me if a got out of line.
March 17th, 2007 at 2:28 am
Konstantinos,
You said (directly to me):
“If you where really as cosmopolitan as you say you are, you would had cited attempts to impose ideas form other culture’s histories”
and
“You claim to be culture blind but you singal out only western actions as imposition of ideas.”
So… let me get this strait… to you, the fact that the examples I sited in one part of one post all occurred primarily in the same hemisphere proves that I am not a cosmopolitan at heart? Even though the rest of my writings (including the point those examples were given to make) reflect exactly that?
Wow, though! Your explaination seems a much more enlightened and logical view than…
…the TRUTH:
That the examples I used were chosen for their pertinence to the points I was making, and I felt no need to pre-classify them by cultural significance, because they are all attrocities which we (Humans) have done to each-other, therefore we ALL own them and we ALL are responsible for the lessons they teach.
That was the point of post #69: “You see, ANY medium of free expression could be picked apart to reveal a slant in any direction the examiner wishes.”
Reality Check: Discovering arbitrary patterns in sited examples does not prove nor show strong evidence of the quality of my own comopolitanism (or suggested lack thereof).
And Mike: It seems this is a forum of discussion related to the social upheaval caused by the allegedly racist depiction of ancient Persians in the movie “300″, so please expect both racism and freedom of expression to be addressed moreso than the Movie itself.
However… I agree, that damn slo-mo was making me sick, too.
March 17th, 2007 at 2:35 am
Konstantinos,
You said:
“Accept my respect and please do forgive me if a got out of line.”
Same to you, K. I was out of line in my last post and sent it before I saw your latest.
March 17th, 2007 at 4:09 am
Mehdi,
You said:
“For me, his being selected as president is all the reason I need to put my effort on increasing the awareness and educating my people so that they can not be “deceived” by such a man ever again.”
Ditto.
Though we come from different lands, I also love my country and heritage, and I also am seeing it lied to, devalued, and internationally injured by corrupt and inept leadership.
And you’re right: “History shows that it’s the bulk of the people who decide what the destiny and decisions of a nation are supposed to be.”
It also shows us that the hopes and intentions of the populous can be destroyed by the rash act of a single powerful person before that destiny can be achieved. In truth, we are all subject to the ramifications of the actions of the few in power. Even democratic nations are subject to this, as the leaders’ power may be bestowed by the people, it is WIELDED by the leaders. Some leaders choose to abuse that power, and some abuse that power to attain or retain their office via the organized deception of the populous. The horror in that, I find, lies in the “how can this be happening” feeling you get every time you detect the lies your told (especially when others do not).
“How can people be so blind?”
“How could I be so blind!?”
That feeling, I think, is caused by the realization that the average individual is virtually helpless to stop it. We realize we don’t actually have any immediate power.
I think I understand well your emphasis on an “individual’s responsibility in acting as an intelligence bridge between him/her self and other members of his/her society and the possible consequences of forgetting this role of ours”
And I applaud the statement. Even if it’s “not a proper venue for this discussion”.
It is our responsibility to ourselves and our global society to help others see through the lies of our leaders.
At least until they start making leaders that don’t lie!
Take solace in the thought that Humankind has not yet achieved its intended result; For the time being, we are all just works-in-progress.
Now I am REALLY out.
Peace and Honor
March 17th, 2007 at 5:23 am
Now, are you all sisters gonna hug and make up? Have we all agreed that it’s the leaders fault?
It’s the leaders… the people are good… they want peace and love and free hamburgers… war is bad… blah… snif… blah… snif… we all brothers and sisters… humanity will rise above all that…
Is the banality festival over yet? You ladies disgust me.
Humanity sucks. Where is the chaos and the mayhem? The 300 would be ashamed of y’ all.
Kostantine, o menandros tha eixe aidiasei me tosi diadiktiaki agapi!
March 17th, 2007 at 10:05 am
WOP- I am glad we sorted this out. But man you do seem to have a very active and interesting life. Truly I am jelous. And by the way man, I don’t think you were “bad” for taking part in the First Iragi War(in reality the second Persian Gulf War, the first was the Iran-Irag bloodbath). You did your duty to your country in a war authorised by the legitimate global institution the UN.Whether it’s fair or not that’s another question. And any answer dosen’t make you “bad” or “good”.Soldiers don’t have the same responsibilities as civilians because a) they don’t have the same freedoms nad b)they do their job within a unigue circumstence i.e battle.
General argument-I would never never wash the people of their responsibility and say it’s the leaders…all society’s and political systems get the leaders they deserve. Because all leaders are children of their societies. Dictaroship, Democracy it’s not important as long as people tolerate and accept the situation it is their and only their fault. If you don’t cry out then top dog is legitimate in thinking that he can do whatever he want’s. Only a succesfull Totalitarian regime can really excuse the people of their responisbility in the quality of their rulers since the people are essentially the product of the regime. And to tell the truth no such perfect regime has really existed. Very few Wars haven’t been popular. People either embraced them or tolerated them. Only the rebuke of defeat woke them up. Thus the very old Latin proverb “gloria victis”=glory to the defeated for they have seen the truth.
Boy Lover-
a) Nai file/fili(?) merikes fores ksefeugoun….alla na sou po mou fainetai oti tous protimo apo kati allous pio apaleutous pou to mono pou fonazoun